Way to go, Jeff!

But, Dawn, if, as you imply, some parents aren't doing it who should step up to the plate and tell children what is unacceptable social behavior? Teachers do it every day when they remind children how to eat in a mannerly fashion, share at recess, talk in moderate tones, etc.

Dorothy, it's no one's job or responsibility but the parent's of these kids. They may teach children proper school etiquette, but if that kid's parents are jerkstores, act like jerkstores around the kid, and have no interest in preventing the kid from growing to be a big jerkstore when he/she grows up, that's the fault of the parents, not the little jerkstore's second grade teacher who couldn't get said jerkstore to stop throwing finger paint at other children.

And so the cycle of jerkstores repeats itself when the little jerkstore grows up and has little jerkstores of his/her own.

What kind of generalities are you throwing around by saying "The teachers need to step up and laugh when the kid trips in the hallway, spills something, says the wrong answer." I'm a teacher in a local school and I don't know of any teachers who do these things.

Unfortunately Sam, I've also witnessed poor behavior similar to what Shannon describes and it was not during my time as a student.

Some schools simply have a bad culture of tolerance and in some cases, flat-out encouragement of establishing a caste system within the school.

Don't get me wrong. I do not believe this is rampant among our schools. Such incidents are isolated.

Thank you for being a teacher by the way. There are many of us who appreciate your patience, perseverance, and sacrifice.

Sam, most of the teachers are good. But their are a handful that aren't and are setting a bad example. I'm not making a generality. I'm stating an opinion on what I have witnessed at the school where my children attend. I have called the teacher on it when I saw it happening. If a child is getting picked on and teased, and a teacher doesn't step up to stop it, they are part of the problem. When you watch a kid trip, and the other kids are laughing, and you smile and have to hide your laugh, that is a problem. It might be a knee jerk reaction, but it is a problem.

Regressing society by 30 or 40 years is not only impossible, but wouldn't make a difference. People see "the good old days" through rose-tinted glasses. They weren't as good in reality as people remember.

Spencer, I agree with that assessment. Bullying was rampant in my High School. There were the in groups and the not so in groups. Guess who got bullied. When I made my "Willis" comment I thought you were referring to my choice of entertainers. LOL.

Jaskie,

I lucked out by transferring to what amounted to a magnet school for high school after my freshman year at Richards, where bullying was rampant.

Now that I have a daughter in high school, I've talked to my sisters who went to HS in the 80s as well as my mom who was in HS in the 50s. Bullying was just as rampant in those decades as it is now. We hear about it more now though, because everyone is hyper-connected (Thanks Patch!).

I've read plenty of history over the course of my self-education and there have always been bullies in schools, companies, neighborhoods, politics, religion, and monarchies (among countless other types organizations as well). If you stick 4 random people from different demographics in a room in pursuit of a common goal, one is likely to be a jerk that tries to push other people around. It's not something that's going away anytime soon. It's in our very nature to be competitive and at its core, that's what bullying boils down to.

In fact, I've been accused of being a bully myself, but certainly not in a physical way (though I will throw down if necessary over a heated Star Wars argument).

Cool. Let me know when you're done with that time machine, FRIEND, because that's the only way we're going back 40 years to the time of white picket fences, gold paved roads, and candy growing on trees.

I've seen bullies who felt encouraged when the other kid would walk away. Then they really wouldn't stop, especially if they took it as a sign of fear. I must admit, one of the highlights of high school was seeing a guy finally - after many weeks of intimidation/trying to walk away - turning around and beating the snot out of the bully.

@Ray - anything can happen but most girls are not going to keep it up if their target dismisses them with a comment. It's no fun to pick on people who won't let it get to them. That's what they enjoy.

Good point - and maybe it gets a bit more complex among girls!

J, strip clubs are legal, but are they moral? I wouldn't have accepted the money if was the breast cancer group. Strip clubs exist specifically to degrade women. Why would anyone want anything to do with that?

"a breast cancer group out of Wisconsin, I believe, received a five figure donation from a local business. It was the largest donation they had received to date but then turned it down when they found out it came from a strip club that held a special fund raiser just for their cause."

Wow. As someone with breast cancer in my family, that actually makes me really mad. Rather than accept the money and use it for research which could save the lives of my family members, they gave the money to a strip club??!!!

Caleb;

Are you joking here? Either you are or your reading comprehension is beyond terrible. Reread what Jaskie said here. The five figure donation was raised by a strip club for the breast cancer group. Said breast cancer group wouldn't accept the money because it was raised by a strip club. Personally, they should take the money. Strip clubs don't exist "to degrade women", they exist because they are a profitable/viable business.
I love reading these comments, some are written so well, and others appear to be written by 4th graders. Entertainment!!

If this happens at school, said bullied kid will soon be welcomed into the very interesting world of alternative schools as well, which ironically, tend to be packed with kids who have violent behavioral issues. You're advocating violent assault, FRIEND.

Standing up for one's self does not need to done with violence, though I'll admit, sometimes there's no choice. However, the fact remains that violence is not tolerated at schools. There are consequences for "putting a couple of teeth down a bullies throat" and they are dire ones at that.

Handling a bully can and should be handled from multiple angles. Depending on the situation, multiple methods of resolution may be appropriate. Physical confrontation is always an option, but should be the last considered, if at all.

I'm not sure why you keep referencing the 70s as some sort of utopia where problems were all solved organically and everyone walked away happy from any and all things confrontational.

Times have changed. Learn to change with them or step aside rather than wishing for some magical time of unicorns, black lights, and disco music.

Tsk, tsk Spencer, you should know better than to pick a fight. I have not made this about homeschooling. You did. My point remains that parents who spend all their time with their kids have more opportunity to keep them on the straight and narrow. I never claimed my home or school are perfect. I never claimed traditional school would or should disappear. I can claim, however, that there is no bullying in my school (there are consequences that are enforced). The teachers I know would love it if their students' parents were next to them to keep them in line. Sadly, teachers are somewhat impotent today. AND, I've been on the Patch for the last few days, yes (you might know it as a teacher institute day, especially necessary since we learn all year long). I haven't visited regularly in months. Too many things to do. You've been replying constantly. Unemployed?

Your knock on the "traditional school system" along with your disgusting implication that schools encourage violence made it pretty clear this was about you and your homeschooling.

You don't teach in a school. You teach in your home by the way. Of course you can monitor their every thought, movement, and behavior! That's the whole point isn't it? Control.

If you can make grand statements such as "teachers are impotent today" then I don't think there's a point in arguing with you either way. You have your own agenda and you're free to push it. I'm free to think you're hilarious in your obvious intent though too.

Wouldn't that be Teacher Institute Week since by your own admission, you've been on Patch the "last few days?"

As far as my employment status? None of your business, frankly. I've never shared what I do for a living or at what hours. You have though. You've told us all REPEATEDLY that you homeschool every day during regular school hours and that you do it all year.

Tsk tsk for making so many assumptions Christine. I do wish IL had a certification program for homeschoolers to weed out the ones who are obviously not qualified to do so (this is not aimed at you per se).

Spencer, you are being intentionally obtuse. Teachers are impotent because they cannot punish in a way that achieves results. Parents can. Teachers can't take away cellphones and iPods. Teachers can't ground students. Teachers can't do anything to children whose parents let them get away with murder. It's a parent's responsibility to teach morality, not a teacher's. The reason homeschool parents do not divorce education from life is simple. When you home educate they are permanently entwined. A paradigm shift occurs and all of life happens with your children present. For some people it's probably about control. There are all kinds of people out there. For us, we strive to help our children be the best people they can be. Accelerated academics and time for all kinds of field trips and hobbies are benefits. Of course I disagree with you regarding certification. Certification is about nothing more than generating additional monies paid to the state. If IL were overly concerned about education, they would fix their astounding truancy problem.

You can skip the homeschooling propaganda Christine. Which definition of "obtuse" does that address? Was it simple enough for you to understand? Or was it still annoying to your amusingly stubborn ideologies?

I'm pretty sure teachers can take away cell phones and ipods, since it has happend to my daughter and when I went to the school to pick it up, there was a box of them. Just FYI.

Do you honestly think that these same parents who won't even ground their kid if/when they get in trouble would be good homeschool teachers? The very thought is once again, amusing. You keep on bringing up truancy too. Do you think these parents who can't even get their kid to go to school would be good homeschool teachers?

Of COURSE you're against being certified as someone who is qualified to teach children. The very THOUGHT probably offends every molecule in your selfish ideology of only wishing to help you and yours instead of your community, state, country, and world as a whole.

Once again though, let's leave your homeschool agenda alone for once. This is about bullying, not the pros and cons of public and home schools, no matter how much you wish it were.

Ah ha! Now I know why you're always harping about IL's truancy! It's because homeschoolers in IL are considered truant! There's no provision in the law for you and your illegal keeping of your children at home all day while you surf Patch!

You're lucky they don't enforce it...for now.

Spencer, personally insulting me is not going to convince me you're right. This isn't about home education. I was trying to remove a little of your ignorance. But, you're comfortable with it. Teachers do not and should not have parental responsibility for children. Parents should. Bullying is wrong anywhere it occurs. But, it is concentrated in the schools. ParentalRights.org

Thank you for the attempt Christine, since I'm sure it's rather obvious how stupid I am.

"This is yet another exampleof many on why we need to go back 30 or 40 years and change things around."

I'm not sure how this is putting words in your mouth, since you are the one, in fact, who said them.

By the way, school shootings are no more frequent now than they were in the 1970s. You probably were just not aware they happened, so this is not a good example.

• December 30, 1974 Olean, New York, Anthony Barbaro, a 17-year-old Regents scholar armed with a rifle and shotgun, kills three adults and wounds 11 others at his high school, which was closed for the Christmas holiday. Barbaro was reportedly a loner who kept a diary describing several "battle plans" for his attack on the school.
• June 12, 1976 California State University, Fullerton massacre, where the school's custodian opened fire with a semi-automatic rifle in the library on the California State University, Fullerton campus killing 7, and wounding 2.
• February 22, 1978 Lansing, Michigan After being taunted for his beliefs, a 15-year-old self-proclaimed Nazi, kills one student and wounds a second with a Luger pistol.
• January 29, 1979 Grover Cleveland Elementary School Shootings, California, where a 16yr old girl opened fire with the rifle, a gift from her father, killing 2 and wounding 9.

It actually goes waaay past the 70s too.

http://www.damninteresting.com/school-violence/

Spencer, has anyone looked into why the traditional school system is producing such violent children? Comparing current and historical violence doesn't get to the root of the problem.

Christine, I realize you have a homeschooling bias from previous discussions, but I don't think it's the school pushing violence. It's just the fact that some people are born with sociopathic leanings, which sometimes lead to violent outbursts.

To blame the school itself for these outbursts is reprehensible.

Perhaps the parents should have played a more active role in these kids lives. Perhaps if they had, they would have recognized a red flag or two, and got the kid psychological help before it led to lives being lost. I won't even go into where the guns are coming from. Obviously not the schools, natch.

Spencer, that was my point. How someone is educated is irrelevant. Homeschooling children spend a much larger percentage of their time with their parents. Those parents are obviously very involved in their kids' lives, and are available to provide correction and consequences. I just don't know of any parents who spend that kind of time with their kids when they attend traditional school.

Christine,
Public schools aren't going away anytime soon. Not everyone is equipped financially or mentally to homeschool. Let's leave it at that rather than turn this into yet another argument between public schooling and homeschooling.

The fact is, these childrens DO spend PLENTY of time at home. Even if a kid goes to school 8 hours a day, that leaves 128 hours that they spend at home. Subtract another 56 for 8 hours of sleep a night and that STILL leaves 72 hours of cognizant, wakeful time that parents can spend with their children and I used conservative numbers no less. The total time available to spend with one's child is probably much more.

I think you may have gotten your point mixed up too, since your first statement of "why the traditional school system is producing such violent children?" was countered by argument that it is not the school's responsibility, but the parents to keep their kids from being violent, but now you are saying it is the parent's responsibility?

I think your arguments are all in line for your continued advocacy of homeschooling, which is NOT THE ISSUE here.

Speaking of time, I've said this before and it looks like I'm saying it again, but you seem to spend far more time arguing on Patch in defense of homeschooling (and plent of other topics, though they all seem to have a knack for coming around to being about homeschooling with you) as opposed to actually homeschooling. Just sayin'.

Spencer, you hold that opinion because you have no idea what home education is, or what it looks like. Teaching my children independence is key. If they need me to sit with them for every minute of the schoolday, I'm not doing a very good job. How many traditional schoolteachers sit with students every minute of the day? But, I digress. I will accept your calculations regarding time not spent in school or sleeping, but aren't you the person who stated it's parents' responsibility to teach morality to their children, and not the schools? Oh, wait. That can be done in their "free time". That seems to be working out really well.

Christine,
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm not against homeschooling entirely. Under certain circumstances, I'm actually for it.

However, ONCE AGAIN, this is not about a homeschool agenda. This is about bullying that takes place and has taken place everywhere, not just in school, throughout history.

Please leave your homeschool agenda out of it. Everyone knows you homeschool. Everyone knows you are for it. Everyone knows your family is perfect in every way as a result of it. Everyone knows how much time you spend homeschooling as opposed to arguing on Patch too FYI.

I agree Jaskie. This is not about religion or about how great homeschooling is. This is a problem in society at large, not even just in public schools.

If a "good christian soul" is literally unable to murder another, then how does one explain the countless (literally) lives lost throughout history as a direct result of said Christianity?

Let's leave faith out of this. People "having religion" has never stopped anyone from taking another's life or bullying someone.

petee started making sensible points, i was agreeing with him, and then halfway through it he lurched the vehicle into irrelevant "left vs right" mode and drove his own post off the cliff.

*pat pat*

Run away? I agreed with what Petees comment was thats all. I am not defending anyone.

Jaskie,

I think you're right. Christine has a knack for getting me riled up. I think I'll take the high road from now on no matter what she says.

Thanks for bringing me down to Earth!

-s

Hooray for Christine! *internet clap*

Honestly, I don't care what you do at home or how and what your children learn. I only care about my daughter, her school, and my community. She's doing great though, in case you're wondering!

As I've said before Christine. You're free to push your agenda all you want.

I'm free to ignore it, so your "deal" is irrelevant (at least to me).

Good day!

*pat pat*

CHRISTINE!!! YOU HAVE GOT TO READ THIS! (This is WHAT public school does to kids!)
Education
Tearful Eighth Grader Defends Controversial Essay on GBTV: Not a ‘Racial Issue,‘ It’s a ‘Learning Issue’

“I feel misunderstood, because most grownups are making it a racial issue, when it’s a learning issue,” a tearful Jada said later. “I also feel hurt, because I’m not in school right now. They’re taking from me the one thing that I do love, and I feel confused because I thought I lived in a country of freedom of speech.”

“I know this is absolutely not about racism, it’s about the education of our children, and that’s what needs to the focus,” Jada’s mother added, later saying “if that’s all it’s about [color] then how far will we ever get?”

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/tearful-eighth-grader-defends-controversial-essay-on-gbtv-not-a-racial-issue-its-a-learning-issue/
(It's almost as if the TEACHERS are doing the bulllying, no?)

Jask,
If one reads Jaskie's "deal" a little more closely, you will find that her "deal" states I am not to bring up "traditional education" (I have a daughter in public school!).

I'm not down with that. I think that frank and honest discussions of our "traditional school system" are just what we need to have to improve them. I'd rather just ignore her.

Spencer, your refusal to accept my deal leads me to believe you do not value alternative forms of education as much as traditional public school. You are the one with the stereotypical problem. All forms of public and private schooling are on the same playing field.If you were really interested in frank and honest discussions of schooling in general, you would be open to all discussion, or none.

Sure Christine,

When you bring up the never talked about problem of physical/sexual/mental abuse among home schooled children, and how it is often hidden from the view of others due to the very circumstances, then I will believe you care about 'open discussion'.

Personally, I think spencer should have taken your 'deal', because it would have been a matter of minutes before you broke it.

OK Tim, let's talk about it. There have been a few cases in the news in the last few years of families who adopted children, then ended up killing them. Some of them were homeschoolers who followed a Pearl/Ezzo method of discipline. You will find that most homeschooling parents do not follow their methods. You will also find that social services let these kids fall through the cracks. If you blame home education, how do you explain the traditionally schooled children who suffer from physical/mental/sexual abuse? According to your theory, the traditional school system would root them all out. Do not make assumptions about things you aren't familiar with, or people you do not actually know. You are traveling down that slippery slope that liberals love so well: parents are all inept and we need the government to make us raise our children correctly (Hitler had a similiar view). Your thoughts?

Actually, that wasn't Tim's theory at all. But, as usual, when you are proven wrong or backed into a corner, you like and misrepresent. Do you teach that to your children in your "homeschool"?

This is satirical right?